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Talk:Charon Relay
Was the Charon Relay a primary relay? :Maybe. It's never been specified what type of relay the Charon relay is. Given the circumstances of its first use by humans, I suspect that it could very likely be a primary relay, but that's just a (barely) educated guess. SpartHawg948 09:39, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::And the Codex provides the answer, I think. According to the Codex for Arcturus Station, the relay to Sol is a secondary one, and since relays are pared, the Charon Relay is most likely a secondary one as well. Lancer1289 16:01, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Then wouldn't it be tougher on the Alliance then to defend an invasion force if it was a secondary relay?Tj2592 17:43, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::But you have to remember, only primary relays are paired. Secondary relays are secondary relays because they can connect to any nearby relay. So just because the one in Arcturus that leads to Sol is secondary doesn't mean that the Charon relay itself is secondary, and if it is, then by its very nature it cannot be paired with any other relay. SpartHawg948 19:11, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::Sorry to bring up the discontinualtiy here, but if Charon was a primary, where is it's partner? We know it goes to Arcturus, which may be the cluster "hub" for the primary relays, but the Codex says that there is a secondary one to Sol. Now I'm confused because it doesn't say where the other three primary relays in Arcturus go. Lancer1289 19:23, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::But that's the thing with secondary relays. Even if the Charon relay is a primary relay paired with one in the Arcturus system, a secondary relay at Arcturus could still connect to the Charon relay. That's what secondary relays do, after all. Link to any other relay within range. SpartHawg948 19:26, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Yes I get that, however it wouldn't make sense to use both a primary and a secondary relay in the same system to travel to Sol. Because if Charon was primary, then it would have to connect to Arcturus, based on Revelation and the Codex. Since there is a secondary in Arcturus, per the Codex, that is used to get to Sol, why wouldn't they use Charon's Partner relay? I would have to say that the Charon Relay is probably a secondary relay in my opinion. Lancer1289 19:34, August 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Why doesn't it make sense? It could very well be a matter of convenience. One relay is in one location, the other in another. Sometimes a ship will be closed to the primary relay to Sol, at other times closer to the secondary relay that also links there. With secondary relays like that, it seems like there's often a fairly good chance of overlap with primary relays in the same system or cluster. The reason I surmised that it was a Primary relay was because it seems to make more sense from the point of view of the story as we know it. We know that humans used the relay soon after finding it, a fact that, to me at least, suggests they didn't need to spend time figuring out the additional hassle of secondary relay destination selection. The Codex also says that the Charon relay led to Arcturus, not that the first destination they tried was Arcturus. Again, this is all guess-work, but that's what I'm thinking. SpartHawg948 19:54, August 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Yes I guess it probably was a primary relay because I don't think humans figured out the whole navigation thing. However they could have found navational data in the Prothean outpost, but primary fits better. Less headaches. I'm done now. Lancer1289 20:26, August 20, 2010 (UTC) The Pluto/Charon image Is that picture of Pluto/Charon appropriate here? First off, I believe that's an artist's rendering, then there's the fact that it shows Charon as a moon, when in the ME universe Charon is an iced-over mass relay. I know that the current image confused me a bit when I looked at it. This image might be better; it may not be the Charon Relay, but it's the only game image of a relay anywhere near a planet, which is at least similar to the Charon Relay's situation. -- Commdor (Talk) 00:05, September 3, 2010 (UTC) :Forgot this point. Anyway, my original post still stands. Comments? -- Commdor (Talk) 18:40, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::I actually wonder if that artist's impression (which is an artist's impression; see the image's history) is copyrighted. In any case, I agree with you. It would be different if it were a photo from a flyby probe, or something of the sort. As for your suggested replacement, I don't know; the problem with it is (a) the planet is obviously much larger than the relay, and (b) the planet has clouds. So, we have two "artist's impressions" to choose from: one renders Charon manifestly a rocky body, the other renders Pluto a large, atmospheric planet. -{ AnotherRho 19:23, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :::Personally I say leave it for now as we really don't have anything to replace it with, and acutal images aren't any better. We'll have to wait until 2015 to get any real images as that is when a probe is scheduled to flyby Pluto. Lancer1289 19:26, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::But this article isn't about Pluto, it's about Charon as a mass relay. I'd think even no picture would be better than having an image that directly contradicts an aspect of the ME universe. -- Commdor (Talk) 19:36, October 20, 2010 (UTC) Alas, over 4 years until we know the truth about the relays! In other respects, I'd almost say that one of the images which show Pluto and Charon in a vague way would be fine, such as the Hubble shot. On the other hand, it would be considerably "uglier" than the pretty drawing. Otherwise we could use a generic Relay shot. In any case, Commdor has a point. -- AnotherRho 19:43, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :Yeah fair point. Either the relay shot or nothing and right now I'l really leaning towards nothing at this point. And since that seems to be the way that everyone is leaning removin the image seems to be the best way to go. Objections? Lancer1289 19:49, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::Just want to point out real quick: The current image does not, as Commdor claims, directly contradict an aspect of the Mass Effect universe. After all, in the Mass Effect universe, the Charon Relay was still considered a moon, and was in fact encased in a "shell of ice and frozen debris several hundred kilometers thick" (Revelation, p. 11) right up until 2149. So, while it is true that the image in the article does not accurately depict how the Relay looked after 2149, it does accurately depict how the relay (then thought to be a moon) appeared or was thought to appear prior to that. No contradiction of the ME universe whatsoever. Just a depiction that predates reactivation of the relay. SpartHawg948 19:58, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :::Revelation actually says that about the relay's ice covering? Another wrinkle I think strays into unrealism. It goes to questions like how the relay accumulated so much ice in only 50,000 years, how humans were able to notice the relay at all underneath the ice, and how so much ice was removed so quickly. In any case, let me reiterate that even if the image is plausible prior to 2149, it's still not from the games. It's no different than a fan-made, speculative drawing. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:27, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::That it may very well be. But it's not contradictory to the ME universe any more than an image of Saren alive and well, or Joker as a child, or Earth way back during the Pangaea days would be. It's just contradicts the current (i.e. 2186) ME universe. SpartHawg948 20:34, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::::*Oh, and just in case my comments muddied up the discussion at all, let me clear it up a bit... no, my comments were in no way an objection to removing the image. :) SpartHawg948 20:45, October 20, 2010 (UTC) Yes, it is a bit odd in terms of realism (maybe the Reapers dumped lots of water out there by Pluto one day while passing by. In any case, a lot of credibility is strained in connection with the Protheans). Anyway, if we do keep it, why not change the caption to say something like, "An artist's impression of Pluto and Charon, before the discovery of the Charon Relay"? Although I'm still unsure if using an ESO image in this way, particularly after removing the ESO label, is legitimate. I don't have time to read up on http://www.eso.org ESO's website about the use of their images. In the case of uncertainty in the latter, I think removing it would be more cautious. -- AnotherRho 20:46, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :::::(Edit conflict) I thought it was contradictory before you shared that quote. I always imagined that the ice layer was thin and covered only the relay's central gyro area, otherwise how could humans have used it so soon after it was discovered? What the book states as fact is what I believed to be the least likely scenario because of the other evidence at hand. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:53, October 20, 2010 (UTC) As there were no objections, I've removed the image. On the side, an awesome intro cinematic for ME3 would be the reactivation of the relay and the first time humans use it. Just a thought. -- Commdor (Talk) 20:57, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :Well took some time to play Obsidian's newest game and I have to say it was good. Anyway back on topic, does anyone think that we should put an image in. If one had to go in I have a few suggestions. 1) Someone can tak a picture of the Sol System in ME2, then get the relay and crop that out. 2) Just using the standard image on the Mass Relay page. That's all I got, but I was thinking that the first one might be a good idea. Lancer1289 22:34, October 20, 2010 (UTC) :I too like that first idea. Also, I assume you mean New Vegas. Any major pitfalls, or does the game rule as much as I've hoped? Arbington 22:39, October 20, 2010 (UTC) ::So thoughts on the first idea, and yes New Vegas is great. I haven't found any major pitfalls yet, but then your definition of Pitfall is probably differnet than mine. Lancer1289 23:43, October 20, 2010 (UTC) Charon Relay Picture Proposal, Discussion I like the idea. I have several shots. Here is one as an example (with the orbital lines edited out): I don't have time to upload the others just now, but this is the largest I could get them. What do you think? file removed --AnotherRho 22:58, October 27, 2010 (UTC) :I like it. Lancer1289 01:17, October 28, 2010 (UTC) I do too. It's the best of those I have. Here is a somewhat sharper version of the same image (more noticeable when looking at the larger image); plus, a generic relay shot (namely, that from ME2). I prefer the shot specific to Pluto, but nonetheless. files removed -}-AnotherRho 02:46, October 28, 2010 (UTC) :I have to say that I like the the sharper image the best. Lancer1289 03:13, October 28, 2010 (UTC) ::Added the sharper shot to the main page. Removing these shots from this page (requesting deletion). -/\-AnotherRho 02:39, November 3, 2010 (UTC) Questions of Information (possible Contradictions on the site) * The second paragraph on the Charon page says that "a science team exploring the edge of the solar system near Pluto discovered that Charon was not a moon at all." Almost sounds like it was an accident. Contrast the Wiki's Timeline page, and the Codex's Timeline entry, which speak of the discovery as consequent to translating the Prothean data cache (as if the search was intentional). Are these both correct (i.e., is the former based on a book/comic)? * The issue of Charon being a Primary or a Secondary Relay: this wiki's Timeline page says, "first exploratory team, in 2149 discover that the Charon Relay allows instantaneous travel across thousands of light-years to a synchronized mass relay in another part of the galaxy." But the Arcturus Codex entry says, "When humanity activated the Charon Mass Relay in 2149, it led to Arcturus, 36 light years from Sol". - But by the Codex on Mass Relays, Primary Relays propel one "thousands" of light years, vs. Secondaries, which propel one (at most) "a few hundred light years". So, our Timeline page implies that Charon is a Primary; but the Codex on Arcturus implies that it's a Secondary. - Basically, the Codex entries can be perfectly consistent, but this Wiki's Timeline page contradicts them. Is it based on a book or comic, or is it groundless? (Note: even if we assume a pair of Primaries were built so close together light years, nevertheless the Arcturus Codex contradicts our Timeline page regarding the distance) --AnotherRho 06:12, February 12, 2011 (UTC) :Pretty sure what you're looking for is ME: Revelation, which details Grissom's expedition through the Charon Relay. I think we're of the mind that the Codex trumps the book (and other non-trilogy media), but don't quote me on that. I'm having trouble making sense of your second point, though. The central difference between Primary and Secondary relays appears to be how many other relays they can connect to, rather than their operational range (which, it should be noted, is never stated to have a minimum. It's perfectly reasonable within this framework for a Primary relay to have a range of 0-XXXX light years, instead of only, for example, 1000-2000 light years). Charon Relay is a Primary relay if it has a one-to-one connection with its Arcturus counterpart; Charon Relay is a Secondary relay if it is capable of connecting to multiple other relays. What is implied by the seemingly contradictory distances is irrelevant, it's the connections that matter. -- Commdor (Talk) 06:59, February 12, 2011 (UTC) ::Thank you for your reply Commdor. I suppose all those details were not as useful as they seemed. Again: Even if we assume that the Reapers would build a pair of Primaries so close together (Sol to Arcturus, 36 ly), nevertheless this Wiki's Timeline page declares that the trip through the Charon Relay sent Grissom's team "across thousands of light-years". "Thousands" cannot be understood as a rough way of talking about "36". Also, if "1000s" of light years, then the Charon relay must be a Primary Relay (source); and its pair could not be Arcturus, which is not 1000s of light years away; but the Arcturus Codex entry says that Charon sent the team to Arcturus (36 ly away). Consequently, from several sides, the Timeline page contradicts the Codex. -- Having established that, I asked about the source (if any) for this Wiki's Timeline page (entry for year 2149); all with a view to deciding what should be done with the Timeline page (keep it or change it). --AnotherRho 07:45, February 12, 2011 (UTC) :::Again, if you have ME: Revelation, check it. The Timeline entry matches almost word-for-word a portion of the storyline summary of Revelation here, so Revelation has to be the source. I lack a copy myself, but this looks pretty cut and dry. I'll just reword the Timeline entry. -- Commdor (Talk) 17:13, February 12, 2011 (UTC) Image In the opening seen of Mass Effect the Normandy is seen going through the process of using a mass relay. During this sequence we see the Normandy pass Jupiter and Neptune (I think). However, joker refers to the "Arcturus relay" as the one they are approaching. Assuming that he was referring to the destination that the relay would take them, not it's location, that would mean that the relay seen in the opening scene is the Charon relay. Phalanx-a-pedian 21:52, February 22, 2012 (UTC) Sol Relay In the demo, one of the committee members refers to it as the Sol Relay. Should we note this in the article? TheUnknown285 18:09, February 25, 2012 (UTC) :We don't know that they are referring to this relay. Lancer1289 18:12, February 25, 2012 (UTC) ::While I guess that's true, it would seem logical that they would call the relay within the Sol System the Sol Relay. Maybe as a compromise, note that we are not completely sure they are referring to what is called the Charon Relay in this article, but that it seems logical that they are? TheUnknown285 19:13, February 25, 2012 (UTC) :::No because we don't know what they are referring to. For all we know, the Sol relay is the one in Arcturus that leads to Sol. We've never heard of the Charon Relay being referred to as anything else before now. Lancer1289 19:15, February 25, 2012 (UTC) ::I'm pretty sure Joker refers to the Sol System's relay as the Sol Relay during Mass Effect 3. TheUnknown285 08:36, March 10, 2012 (UTC) Arcturus Prime relay Not intending to start an edit war without reason. But I am pretty certain of two things. 1 The arcturus prime relay links to the exodus cluster and eden prime (since no relay trips are seen between the opening when this is mentioned and landing on eden prime). 2 The charon relay only links between sol and arcturus. 3 the name would imply that arcturus prime is in arcturus. 4 lastly we cannot be sure that these are the same relays so it boils down to speculation at most. Midnightpiranha (talk) 22:51, January 25, 2013 (UTC) : On point 2: The Charon Relay doesn't only connect with Arcturus, as evidenced by the fact that you can get to the Sol System in ME and ME2 without having to go through the Arcturus Stream. For point 3: Possibly but you also see roads in cities named after the nearby cities they go to (e.g., Atlanta Highway goes to Atlanta). So, it's not a stretch to say that the Arcturus Prime relay connects you to the Arcturus Stream instead of being located within the Arcturus Stream. On point 4: It seems pretty clear to me that they are the same relay. In ME, Joker says "The Acturus Prime Relay is within range." This is right after the Normandy passes what is clearly Jupiter and just before it passes what is clearly Neptune. So, I think it's pretty clear that the Charon Relay is the Arcturus Prime Relay and that the original edit was correct. TheUnknown285 (talk) 06:48, February 13, 2013 (UTC) :No it isn't. It is speculation. Perhaps the reason it isn't in ME or ME2 is because no one thought of it? Gameplay issues? There is also evidence to say that the Charon relay is a Primary Relay, which only connects to one other relay, in the Arcturus System. It is speculation and it will remain out of the article. Lancer1289 (talk) 15:55, February 13, 2013 (UTC) :Given the contradictory evidence; the fact that Charon seems to link to Arcturus only and that Arcturus is said to be the only point from which you can reach Earth, but that such a link is over a short (36 LY) distance that implies a secondary relay and the codex says the Arcturus relay to Sol is secondary, there's also the strong possibility that Charon is a secondary relay, but that thanks to stellar drift and whatnot Arcturus happens to be the only other secondary relay in connection range of Sol. 08:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC) Clarification So I just read this article and I have need of clarification. "The Charon Relay and the rest of the mass relays across the galaxy are severely damaged, but are eventually rebuilt with or without the Reapers' help depending on Shepard's final choice." Where does it indicate that? Or did I totally miss something on my most recent playthrough? Hefe (talk) 18:53, March 5, 2013 (UTC) If you're talking about the Destroy: Vaporize ending, then I agree. I don't remember there being any indication that the relays are rebuilt there. In the other scenarios, they are rebuilt: In the extended cut, the Reapers help rebuilt the relays if Control or Synthesis are chosen. If Destroy is chosen and EMS is high, then the galaxy eventually rebuilds them. TheUnknown285 (talk) 19:17, March 5, 2013 (UTC) Yep. I missed something. Thanks. Hefe (talk) 19:43, March 5, 2013 (UTC)